Talk:Link VS Cloud/@comment-190.22.37.7-20150730182918

Long ass comment incoming, not a rant btw, simply stating what I disagree in:

I really can't help but feel they overestimated Link's physical capabilities and underestimated Cloud's here:

-Golden Gauntlets:

If we go by real world physics isn't the strength to lift weight completely different from the one to whistand forces? Besides in game Link doesn't hit any harder or whistands attacks any better when you get the Golden Gauntlets, so Link suddenly matching every aspect of Cloud's power feels coming more from an assumption rather than proof. While Cloud's attack strength seemed to be accurate, though.

Also, can you actually block a falling meteor? I mean in fiction yeah, but given they try to keep the analysis of physics active to measure characters, wouldn't a falling meteor that actually reacher the ground have insane force behind it? This last one is not a complaint, it's a genuine question.

-Pegasus Boots + Roc Feather:

Again, nothing in the games say these grant super speed, super reflexes and high jump capabilities. The pegasus boots simply allow you to dash in a direction and the rock feather to jump over holes. But Link doesn't become any faster in movement or combat. The Bunny Hood would have made more sense (though it would have looked silly) given it at least gives quicker free movement, but still no Super Speed and Super Aerial Combat. But if you look around you will find some analysis that show Cloud reaches beyond the speed of sound during his fight with Sephiroth by taking how quickly he bounces on debris, swings and the friction created. Also, Link has no aerial game to speak of, save some reactions in boss battles (such as the Agorok fight in Twilight Princess) Link doesn't have an aerial combat whatosever and in games where he does have it (such as Smash Bros) it's notoriously poor. Cloud on the other hand has an incredible one as seen in Advent Children.

-Hylian Shield:

Nothing to say here. That thing is awesome.

-Cloud takes super effective damage from the Master Sword:

Would be the case... yeah, but in FFVII. Death Battles take characters at their peak and that would be end Advent Children Cloud where Aerith removed the Geostigma from Cloud, whose source are Jenova Cells, meaning Coud no longer has Jenova Cells in his body and he could fight pretty well with them during the rest of the movie. Also, the Ziedrich give an absolute massive defense boost and halves all elemental damage; holy included which is the element of the Master Sword (goddess sword, blade of evil's bane, the thing destroys darkness, etc) meaning Cloud would whistand some attacks perfectly fine.

-Link is a smarter fighter and Cloud isn't the "smartest one":

Yes and no, Link is indeed an excellent strategist, quick thinker, good at analyzing and exploiting weaknesses and is indeed much more tactical and smarter than Cloud. However, the SOLDIER isn't as stupid, side materials do mention he's quite good with materia, the entirety of FFVII revolves around materia usage, meaning it would be absurd to think Cloud went the entire adventure simply swinging his sword around. Not to mention in Advent Children he is shown to dual wield with a lot of skill (which would also make tanking his attacks with a Shield much less effective), he was shown to switch blades of his Fusion Swords a bunch of times with good effect and his Omnislashes require him to coordinate pretty well with every one of his blades. In the movie he didn't use materias against Sephiroth because of a personal issue regarding him, not because of a lack of strategy.

This doesn't take away Link is a better strategist and could exploit Cloud's weaknesses, but Cloud would do more than just try to hit Link. Had he fought with the Fusion Swords would have made Link's turtling a lot less effective, for example. Link would likely find a new strategy, sure, but my point is, Cloud isn't as simple and stupid as he's made out to be.

-Target Lock On:

I might be missing something here, but from what I've seen locking on simply allows the player to focus on the enemy and react with the speed he has and nothing else. Link doesn't really get bullet time reactions nor the game slows down for you to react properly. Then again I might be missing something. Also, Link did get hit a couple of times during Omnislash V5 and didn't have trouble blocking and countering. Not even Sephiroth who had Cloud absolutely outclassed and shrugged off every attack thrown at him (and who is clearly shown to have super speed) could stop the attack once it connected.

-Limits take time to charge and spells working like in Dissidia:

They really mixed things here quite a bit. Spells were like their watered down versions of Dissidia (which is for gameplay balance more than anything). In the games, the canon, Firaga is a huge explosion of fire... not something you can simply reflect with a swing (he could have dodged it though). Though I can't say anything about Thundaga given Link has shown to be able to catch and deflect lightning such as his fight with Demise.

The other issue is the Limit Breaks... yeah, they do take time to charge in FFVII but in Advent Children they could be used right away at any moment, even if they were somewhat less flashy versions of the in game skills. Which also... Finishing Touch is a tornado that can insta kill opponents, not the spin attack from Dissidia which is once again changed to keep Cloud as a close range fighter, just throwing this in here. Funnily enough in the new Dissidia game Cloud does throw tornadoes with Finishing Touch.

Also, if you go by the Dissidia interpretation Cloud's Limit Breaks could break guards or in the case of special Blocks such as Jecht's or most of ExDeath's both the attack and the guard cancel out. I know this wouldn't count since it isn't canon, but so shouldn't be the Dissidia spells.

-Differences in setups:

While at first it seems things are fair by giving them their most iconic gear... it really isn't so much. The Master Sword is more often than not the best Sword in the game, same goes for the Hylian Shield and also he got the Golden Gauntlets, the Roc Feather and the Pegasus Boots, which unlike the games translated into giving Link superhuman capabilities he's never shown to have save the very specific instance of lifting the granite pillars. Cloud gets his Buster Sword, his worst sword with the fewest Materia slots, it could have perfectly gone with the Fusion Swords, which while don't have any materia slots allows Cloud to dual wield and fight at his best like in Advent Children and they are also almost as iconic as the Buster Sword. Yes, he did get the Ziedrich, one of the best armors in the game, however its defense boosts were completely ignored and it was used due to a rather flimsy reason of why he shouldn't get more materia. Which also gives the issue of the materia, of a massive selection he got the two most basic ones which were there to show Link deflecting it like he does in the games more than anything (which is always awesome to see, though). Not saying give Cloud Ultima or some end tier materia, but given Link was given good items to boost his capabilities, why not give Cloud some support spells or support materia to keep things fair, like Haste or Barrier (cure no that would be cheap and drag on the fight too much). The Ribbon was fine, though I do have a nitpick... Stun is a status effect in some Final Fantasy games or if it was just staggering... the Ziedrich should have protected from the damage.

To be fair, I can still see Link beating Cloud... just not matching him in Cloud's strengths. Beat him like a you beat bosses in a Zelda game, you are outmatched in power, so you look for weak points and exploit them. Here I really thing they relied too much in assumptions regarding Link's equipment to beef him up and close the gap between superhuman capabilites while at the same time downplayed Cloud's strengths, such as possible arsenal, his speed and his moves, and played up his weaknesses, namely his vulnerability to the Master Sword and his supposed lack of strategy.

It was a great fight all in all, simply a bit unfair towards Cloud.