Talk:Roshi VS Jiraiya/@comment-26915466-20181129022927/@comment-25037311-20181202104222

"Because you're trying to downplay, period. Saying it was Beerus alone doing so like through "Hakai hax" is headcanon. They hit with physical punches. Beerus has been confirmed universal in his own right many times, and Goku's power boosts may have finally put him on that level. Especially given what we've seen in the actual canon like how Gotenks shattered a spatial/temporal barrier with his voice, Buuhan screamed forcefully enough to tear through a universe's space-time, and then Gogeta recently punched Broly into another dimension. That they are universe busters should be beyond doubt when the narrator confirms it, it's in both manga and anime, based off Toriyama's manuscripts, thus his intention is that he wants them to be universe busters. I will not highball like Seth, but calling them galaxy busters at this point, so far after Episode 12, is an extreme lowball. It's not the first time they've done this."

That's true.

"Also, Superman has his high-ends all the time. Doesn't change anything. He also has abysmal low-ends. Quite an equal number of them too. So in the end, what determines who beats Superman, is simply who's writing for him, unless you want to go with the strongest version of Superman, which does win, which makes a rematch pointless. But as writers, since they're independent creators themselves, I think Ben and Chad have a duty to show Goku winning over Superman just once. Especially since Ben himself conceded there are incarnations of Superman Goku beats, and this is a fight that really depends on the circumstances."

I do agree that they should use a standard more well known version of Superman. Something like New 52. Just some version people are used to and think about the most instead of some ridiculous godly incarnate.

Superman has clearly been shown to have limits. He's strained when lifting things before. And he hasn't always held back in his fights as people claim. One time he hit Darkseid with all of his might, but Darkseid survived and then laid a beatdown on him. Superman essentially lost the fight too before it got interrupted.

Saying Superman is as strong as he needs to be is like saying a cowboy in the old west with a six shooter has enough bullets to shoot twenty men without reloading.