Board Thread:VS Debates/@comment-31816534-20171003210326/@comment-31816534-20171008214005

Clockworx wrote: TheMetallicBlur wrote: Metal Mario875 wrote: 1. Good point yourself.

2. Basically what Clock said. No one in fiction has to follow limits. That is why a monkey has busted a universe, a hedgehog has broken the light barrier, and a marshmallow has tanked a planet exploding at point-blank. None of that should be possible through the Laws of Physics, but fiction throws Physics out the window and does what it wants.

3. A blender? That was it? Isn't that the same thing that, like, destroys fruits, could probably cut off your hand, and that's about it? Really? I now officially think F.L.U.D.D. is Goop's end, unless this is different. Because Mario can spin and shoot water, so he can accomplish both at the same time. And besides, like I explained before, Goop can still be one-shot.

4. That is true, but Mario has destroyed something that was intangible. So it doesn't matter. He can still accomplish wishing him out of existence or transmuting him into something tangible like gold, or, since he can touch him, mutilating him.

5. Mario hasn't, but Bowser has. Mario defeated Bowser, who tanked the collapse of his Galaxy Reactor, which was stated to threaten the very fabric of the universe whilst extremely fatigued. Bowser's Galaxy Reactor is repeatedly called a universal threat, and was stated to decide "The Fate of the Universe," solidifying it at this tier. Mario damaged Bowser to the point of unconsciousness, so he definitely scales. And with that, via scaling to Bowser, he could very well do it himself.

And similar to how you used Zoom and Flash as an analogy, lemme give you one, too. As Vegito and Super Buu have taught us--never hold someone stronger than you inside your body. Vegito obliterated Super Buu because of that. Mario could start destroying internal organs, destroying his nervous system, maybe his white blood cells to keep him from fighting disease, etc. Mario has done so to Bowser. Or, of course, he could just bust out of Alien X's skin and... well, voila.

6. But no, there is still a difference. Yes, I get it, Knuckles had to of reacted. He has other FTL feats anyway. But this? We know Bowser and Lubba had quite the struggle--thus, they had to of been able to keep up with the other. In this case, it was Knuckles catching Super Sonic off-guard. No struggle, no definitive scaling otherwise, and so on. That feat lacks a lot of what Bowser tagging Starship Mario has.

7. You said Mario would never do that. Well, he has. He time traveled by jumping because he heard Bowser was time traveling, too. Mario is willing to use time travel. Regardless, like said... he don't need it.

@Clock: I think Mario beats Alien X because of Paper Mario feats. All other forms can be defeated with M&L feats.

If you want explanations, well, I can do that. Here's the M&L feat that beats all forms except Alien X:

Defeated Dreamy Bowser, who was the embodiment of the Dream Stone. The Dream Stone is composed of 7,670,250,000,000,000,000 dreams/universes. The Dream Stone has existed for, at least, an entire era. As stated by, like, everyone in Dream Team, the prosperity of the Pi'illo Kingdom dated back to an entire era ago. According to the Geological Time Scale, an era would be 100,000,000 years ago. Please note there are dozens of innumerable species on Pi'illo Isle, including Nommon, Hooskis, countless monsters, guardians such as Mammoshka and Zeekeeper, the Pi'illos, etc. The highest island population without random numbers above it is 10,000,000--which is very reasonable, considering how many species have existed there and how long they have. It is shown dozens of times throughout the game--what with Big Massif, Dr. Snoozemore, Mammoshka, random employees, etc. that the characters fall asleep numerous times a day due to Pi'illo Island's strange sleepy wavelength. 10,000,000 x 365.25 = 3,652,500,000. Because people dream 4 to 7 times a night--and people on Pi'illo Isle dream multiple times, we'll use a reasonable end and assume they all sleep thrice. We'll be using three instead of two because, as evidenced by Snoozemore, characters can even fall asleep tens of times each day. 3,652,500,000 x 21 = 76,702,500,000. And finally... 76,702,500,000 x 100,000,000 = 7,670,250,000,000,000,000 dreams/universes that are in the Dream Stone. Each dream is a universe, and Mario reduced the Dream Stone to dust after defeating Dreamy Bowser, which would the equivalent of reducing 7,670,250,000,000,000,000 universes to dust.

As for the Paper Mario feat:

Let's begin with String Theory Soup. I feel as though this item is very important and trustworthy for many reasons. One, it was stated by a third-person omniscient narrator, who knows literally anything and everything. Two, it's canon because Wario stealing and keeping the treasures in this game is part of story. And finally, because it was important. It was locked in a puzzle-locked chest patrolled by security inside of a museum. With that said, it seems reliable. And yeah, it's true the Marioverse only dabbles in dimensions with 2-D, 3-D and 4-D, but the fact it dabbles in a topic at all speaks magnitudes. With such a concept even existing in Mario at all makes this even more believable.

It says that the secrets of the Marioverse can be revealed by drinking it, and the name implies that this houses String Theory.

Next, let's talk about, "And in the end, it will consume all existence... All worlds, all dimensions." Does this refer to universe or mathematical? Dimension D is the piece of evidence to say they mean universe. What says it means space? Merlon stating that The Void is a hole in the dimensional fabric of space, Bestovius being referred to as a dimensional governor that gives out the dimensional technique, said dimensional technique being one that flips the user between spatial dimensions, and, well, sense itself. "And in the end, it will consume all existence... All universes, all universes..." < That just doesn't make sense. And besides, it consumes all existence and all dimensions. So, as long as mathematical dimensions exist within Mario, they'd be erased. String Theory Soup says those exist, too.

To show you The Void's consumption statement: The Void consumes all worlds, all dimensions, all timelines (by making it as if those worlds and dimensions never existed at all) and possibilities (erases the future and past as well as all concepts, allowing (Super) Dimentio to create his own).

Here's some direct quotes to show they're talking about mathematical dimensions:

It is a hole in the very dimensional fabric of space! Such a strange phenomenon...

The Light Prognosticus foretells the hero will meet a dimension governor. And from him, the hero will learn the dimensional technique.

That technique was the "Dimensional Flip," which can slip between spatial dimensions.

To apply, let's talk about Merloo.

This sage was very wise and is even said to have written the Light Prognosticus... He was also a great magician who could control dimensions...

Keep note of emboldened statements.

[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A_IjEPiYXhE&feature=youtu.be&t=15m50s The Void will swallow all... Naught can stop it... unless the one protected by the dark power is destroyed. The hero with the power of eight Pure Hearts will rise to this task.]

Quoted from the Light Prognosticus. Remember, Merloo wrote the Prophecy, and says he can't stop it. In order to be powerless against Super Dimentio, the latter must be outside his realm of power--a twelfth dimensional being.

To back it up... the power Death Manipulation basically says that, in order to control its concepts, you must be able to instantly kill a target and make it immortal. You can only be stopped should the enemy have a stronger concept.

Let's propose Jaydes has power of life and death concepts. Let's first match definitions and feats...

She can instantly kill Paper Mario, she can also bring Luvbi back during the post-game, even though such a Nimbi never existed, and was merely a persona of the Pure Heart. And while I do believe it's PIS she could do this, she still restored life to the Pure Heart.

So, she has the power to both instantly kill a target and, on the contrary, make it immortal.

Now, she is powerless to Super Dimentio. With our page in mind, we know that Super Dimentio has to have a stronger concept.

Higher dimensionality is a much stronger concept. Merloo supports it, and Jaydes supports Merloo. The Pure Hearts support it too, as they have infinite power when in comparison to normal characters. This is all very consistent--and, it provides great reasoning for why the Chaos Heart and Pure Hearts were needed. Everything's accounted for.

Finally, to finish why 11-D base Paper Mario characters is valid.

As we know, Paper Mario tanked The Void. Of course, that thing was consuming all eleven dimensions.

Now, look at Paper Mario's condition after The Void hit.



Now, his condition after Dimentio's attack.

The similarities between the two occurrences are undoubtedly very similar, thus Dimentio would scale to The Void's power, the Heroes of Light would scale to Dimentio, being High 1-C, and the users of the Pure and Chaos Hearts would be Low 1-B.

To back up Dimentio scaling, his attack (that he held back on, mind you) matched a tremor from The Void.

I would also say that, since The Void consumes all dimensions, then the Paper Mario characters should get Immeasurable speed as well--for both their base forms and with their hearts, due to being naturally transcendent of normal space-time.

Finally... String Theory is divided into five theories. None are simply "String Theory." Prior to 1995, theorists believed that there were five consistent versions of Superstring Theory. This understanding changed in 1995 when Edward Witten suggested that the five theories were just limiting cases of an eleven-dimensional theory called M-Theory. Thus, there are five versions of String Theory, all of which are connected to M-Theory. In Bosonic String Theory, space-time is 26-dimensional, while in Superstring Theory it is 10-dimensional, and in M-Theory it is 11-dimensional. Between these three, so we don't wank and so we don't downplay, M-Theory is the safest and most likely case the game had been referring to. And considering it didn't specify, simply calling it "String Theory," we would go by the safest and most likely case. In this case, M-Theory. Not to mention that Superstring Theory goes off of M-Theory either way, so we'd need specific statements to call it 10-D instead of 11-D. Which we do not have, unfortunately. That's why it's 11-D rather than 10-D or 26-D.

Even if we deny String Theory, then The Void is still 2-B. Thus, base characters are 2-B, and thus, Super Dimentio and those who scale are 2-A. Unless you believe in 2-A Dream Depot, which would then cause their base forms to be 2-A and Super forms to be High 2-A. The "infinite power" Pure Hearts are backed up by the Prophecies themselves saying that Merloo and Jaydes, two who have supreme powers in this verse, are powerless to stop it.

2-A Dream Depot is legit cause of this:

Mario fought Bowser during the events of Mario Party 5, where he stated and showed he was going to ruin, or, destroy Dream Depot. In Dream Depot, the dreams of the multiverse's denizens are turned into entire universes. Bowser also planned on destroying Future Dream; this dream in particular was stated by Misstar AND by Mario Party 5's guide booklet on page 28 to be an entire universe, meaning each dream is its own universe. Going by this, there are 62,443,259,802,000,000,000 dreams/universes in Dream Depot. Please note Bowser also wanted to recreate Dream Depot itself. Dream Depot is a realm [http://www.gamesdatabase.org/Media/SYSTEM/Nintendo_GameCube//Manual/formated/Mario_Party_5_-_2003_-_Nintendo.pdf "Past the moon and beyond the stars." A realm people only get a chance to visit as long as the Star Spirits approve, implying such a realm is transcendental to the regular universe, meaning it would be at this level.] More support it is a transcendent realm is the game opening, where it appears as a tiny dot in nothingness before encompassing all of... well, everything. Bowser only got to Dream Depot due to his evil dreams, combined with three Koopa Kids. So it was more of a bypass than anything else. Thus, recreating a transcendental realm to a finite multiverse is 2-A. And considering entire universes that are dreams appear as small blue dots only backs up the possibility of it being infinite in size.

If 2-A Dream Depot is legit, and you buy into the Star Rod infinitely increasing Bowser's power, then Super Dimentio would actually be Low 1-C, which is still infinitely above Alien X.

I say the Star Rod infinitely increased Bowser's power because of this:

If a guy is COMPLETELY invincible and no one can actually damage him, attack him or effect him with ANY kind of A.P. nor hax [making this battle an utter god-stomp] you MUST have a source that grants you infinite power so that you can overpower him and therefore make all his capabilities and his invulnerability useless against your capabilities and your power. This is what the Peach Beam did to the Star Rod. Not only that, but it nullified the Star Rod's full power.

Bowser was completely invulnerable once tapping into the Star Rod's full power to anything, including physical attacks, mental attacks and any hax. The only way Mario beat him was by using the same exact power source--wishes. And the characters keep saying the Star Rod's power is incomprehensible, so it makes sense. Also considering invincibility has lead to infinite power increases in this series before, like with Super Dimentio, Count Bleck and the Chaos Heart. 2. There still has to be some aspect of logic within it. Otherwise, there's no foundation for how strong a character is.

3. The only reason he was hurt by a blender was because he was separating into his constituent compounds. And for the record, Negative Goop has survived being blasted by Water Hazard, so F.L.U.D.D isn't as useful as you thought he was.

4. Was that thing made of radioactive energy? Because that's what NRG is. Well, his true form.

5. You do realize that Bowser isn't really good of a strategist while Ben is. Plus. when has Bowser created a duplicate of the universe with his own power? Never. Plus, there is the whole " Alien X can literally influence Mario's movements and make him commit suicide." 2. While I don't agree with Mario being Infinite in any category, you try too hard to implement logic into VS debating sometimes.

4. Does that matter? A little radiation couldn't make Mario flinch.

5. But Dreamy Bowser can. Now, I can't yet tell if Alien X would work since Mario & Luigi resisted their dreamy adversary. 2. Well, i'm not trying to put too much logic, just the right amount.

4. Not the radiation, the light.

5. Dreamy Bowser used a move where he influenced Mario's movements?