Talk:Goku VS Superman 2/@comment-14017325-20160406151545/@comment-14017325-20160413003235

given the size its gotten i'm going to have break it into sections. i'll tidy it up later

you say: 'I've already given tonnes of evidence to debunk that "limitless" claim, but you just keep ignoring all of it and going "Superman is limitless, he will always beat Goku". Why do I even bother posting anything at all if it get completely ignored?'

i say: all you put was one link which is doesn't explain in great detail which superman it falls under so no you haven't you haven't debunked anything. its you who seemed to ignroed that ' dc has a wide variety of superman stories written by different people with different ideals of how he should be seen. not one man like dragon ball is.'

you say: 'Yes, Goku has limits. When has anyone ever said that wasn't true? What is up for debate is Superman has no limits. If he had "no limits" then he wouldn't strain when lifting or fighting at certain times. He would be able to wipe out all of the universe with a finger poke, if he was truly limitless. "Limitless" means his power equals infinite, which means there should be nothing he is incapable of destroying or defeating, but that clearly is not the case. As Superman loses plenty of times (ignoring usage of kryptonite).'

i say: i've already covered that i said ' Supes on the other hand was declared officaly from the superman homepage that he has no limits whatsover in the first place. which means that no matter what he was  up against. with that used to its max. ''' he would triumph 'no matter what what it will be.'      so with him at his maximum potential, there is virtually nothing that can beat him at his best. if it was used all the time which dc doesn't.

Superman's stories don't used this all the time because the story would end immediately if he did much like one punch man does with his battles. and dc wouldn't sell a dime because the nature of superman's stories does not fit the raising to the challenge nature of dbz nor the comedic gag of one punch man.

he has inhibitors placed on him due to giving the story the chance to develop. but death battle does not do that they even say it themselves

'Wiz:  We are looking at these characters at their maximum potential,'

when you use superman in a what if fight. you must use him at his max potential but you can also choose to use his weaknesses as well to give things a better chance but it depends on his opponents personaility and characteristics which is another problem for goku.

goku's character is another factor. goku obviously would never use them because as a saiyan he enjoys the challenge and prides on fairity. you must bring goku's character into it as well.

you say:' Hey you were the one who brought up: "how do you think goku would handle seeing the people in his life die in front of him while he's forced to live on?" Whether or not Goku is immortal doesn't have anything to do with this fight.'

i say: because you brought up ' the sun itself isn't unlimited. It will burn out in about 5 billion years. And since the sun isn't eternal, it obviously couldn't equal an infinity energy output, and by extension Supes the solar battery cannot possibly have infinite strength.'

why would you bring that up here unless you believe that can help goku win this battle in which it could by extending his life in the living world via dragon balls or other creatures giving their life force to him.

my reason for goku not wanting this is because as quoted by the twealth doctor from the episode 'the girl who died' :  'Immortality isn't living forever. That's not what it feels like. Immortality is everybody else dying. She might meet someone she can't bear to lose. (meaning ashilder)'

goku has loved ones in his life. chichi, gohan, goten, pan etc they would not have their lives extended and their life span is the same as the average human. he couldn't bear watching them die in front of him while he's forced to live on alone. and watching the earth. the home he has protected his whole life explode and consume in front of him by the sun. just to defeat superman that will all be the price to pay if he chose this path.

in the buu saga he had this sense of looking for a successor. where he  knows he is not gonna be around forever which is one of the main reasons why he wanted his sons to protect the earth in his absence and to train uub. he's aware of his own mortality and unlike frieza who actuaclly seeked to live forever. chose to accept his permanment depature when it comes.

i should also bring in detail on what other things can power supers in the suns absence. obviously other stars in the universe which is filled with billions of trillions and superman can go to them easily. superman can rewind time so he can alway live in an era where the sun will be around forever to him.

there are beings in dc that can alter the laws of physics like playdough such as mxyzptlk a being from the 5th dimension and who is very fond of superman so they can restore the sun in a snap. superman prime one million was friends with another superman who came from the 5th dimension as well who also exhibits the same powers.

you say: 'What the frig are you talking about? What does any of that stuff with Goku feeling energy in the afterlife have to do with ANYTHING in this debate?'

i say: its part of the immortaility debate for goku to outlive the sun to defeat superman. you said ' Funny you should mention Goku living on while everyone else he knew dies of natural causes. It  did  happen. It's called Dragon Ball GT, in the series finale set 100 years later. Goku went away with Shenron and ascended to a higher plane of existence, and returned to see his descendant Goku Jr. as well as his granddaughter Pan who's now an elderly lady.'

so i responded ' but its not the first time he's done that. he put his hand on gohan's shoulder when trunks was going back to the future after cell was destroyed when he was dead. what happened in gt is that he gave his positive type life force to shenron as to restore the dragon balls after the shadow dragons though it took a century. he died afterwards.

but that doesn't mean he can't see whats happening on the earth from otherworld. after all he hangs around with the kais. his energy was felt by gohan during the final beam struggle against cell. its not the same as being alive. the difference is when he's dead everyone will come to him eventually and spend eternity together with him in the otherworld. that will be his eternal happiness..'



you say: 'I'm not here to talk about the philosophical underpinnings of what their characters represent.'

i say: then you have lost the debate because both contestants are filled with philosophical undpinnings. its the foundation of their characters and powers as well. if you take that away they wouldn't be goku and superman anymore as i said above character is a factor including philosphy.



you say: 'Oh. And the consistency of Superman's feats are so much better? Where the writers literally make up powers on the spot when they feel like it.' i say: that's not death battle's fault. dc created superman they do what they like with him. same with toei and goku. death battle just used what DC made. you say: I'm pretty sure it's the main Superman, not Prime or anything. But does it really matter? ' i say: Prime is the one who had removed those mental barriers he placed on himself due to his identity crisis and purpose which prevented him from tapping into his fullest potential. in other media that potrays this such as smallville. this prevented him from flying. like smallville most media potrayal of superman often focus on the days before he truely overcame his mental limit. his learning days. in his learning days due to his little knowledge about his powers he was often more exposed to his weaknesses and made mistakes more often. but these were his freshman years as superman. you say: If I go by Screwattack logic, any feat or ability from any Superman applies to all of them. And by extension any limitation/weakness applies to all of them as well. See how stupid that logic sounds now, when I reverse it? i say: no they declared at the beginning of the first death battle Wiz: ' To ensure no questions are left unanswered, we will be acknowledging every official resource for both combatants, though the original writings hold precedence. No mistranslations allowed. Also, as he was retconned and rebuilt in 1986, we will be examining the modern Superman. '''Boomstick: Considering Supe's pre-86 could make up new super powers on the fly and destroy entire solar systems by sneezing, probably a good idea. He's Wiz and I'm Boomstick.'''

Because of that goku would have had no chance from the start so there would have been no fight. they chose post crisis because his feats made more sense and had more structure but eventually he too like his predecessor reached the ridicoulous stage because that's what he does breaks reality.

you say: "because superman has reached the pinnacle." And this, my friend is in direct contrast to all your previous arguments. If he is limitless, then he has already reached his pinnacle. But if you say he still has room to improve, then he's not at his limit. I don't expect a third battle, but I want people to stop treating this fanmade analysis with fancy CGI like it's the canon explanation'

i say: i've already explained ' that strain is actually from his own mentaility. not his power or pain.' he has room for learning but how learns is not with getting new abilities and using them but with his morals and expierience the source of his learning his mind not his body for training like goku is.

on an ending note here's something to think about. you gonna have to ask yourself this question someday. what will happen to dragon ball after akira toryiama dies? as of 2016 he's 61 now. so eventually there is gonna come a day where he will become too weak to continue the series and will retire. when that day comes what do you believe will happen to dragon ball? will it get rebooted?