Talk:Mario VS Sonic/@comment-29933641-20170903214127/@comment-26374068-20170904203536

I can show you how. :)
 * Rubs hands together

Please note: there are three deciding factors in a fight. Attack Potency, Speed, and Hax. We'll use composites, but let's analyze different outcomes.

Attack Potency
We all know the tier and attack potency/durability of a character is the most important deciding factor in a fight. So, who takes this? Let's compare the feats.

Mario Sonic
 * Is a Star Child. By being a Star Child, Mario has a star embedded within his heart that grants him sufficient enough power to conquer the universe, given that the other six Star Children are with him. All of conquer's definitions take some sort of exertion of power, so either way, this is at this level.
 * Defeated Ifrit, which was able to destroy the planet as stated by witness accounts as well as log entries from Gerald Robotnik's log diary. Also defeated Perfect Chaos, who was powered by all seven Chaos Emeralds, which did this.

Just for kicks, this is going off of their consistency. Screw consistency, let's talk about everything. First, though, what's the difference in power here?

Mario's power is 2.4271428571428571428571428571429e+82 J. Sonic's is 6.4290767e+33 J. Dividing Mario's power by Sonic's, and Mario is 3.7752588286010915733158742018786e+48 times stronger than Sonic. This is so unfathomably high, that the slightest breath or gesture from Mario would burst Sonic into bloody paste.

Anyway, what about other feats? Can Sonic get a break anywhere else?

Mario I mean, I could go on. There's many, many, many more feats. But let's go to Sonic and see if he can beat these. Only base forms, for now. I'll exclude Boom and X because they're kinda weak in base.
 * Large Star level
 * In Strikers Charged, creates a realm with a star in it and a wide expanse of space around him. Comparable to other captains, like Peach and Diddy Kong, who accomplish the same feat.
 * At least Solar System level+ to Multi-Solar System level+
 * Defeated Bowser during the events of Mario Party 9. In Mario Party 9, the plot is that Bowser has stolen the Mini-Stars from the sky. And apparently, it seems that these Mini-Stars are actual stars in the sky. In the ending cinema, the Mini-Stars are returning to the sky--all of which Bowser said he was going to put to use. It's shown at the end, when many burst after his defeat, that he meant this as they were going to power him. By absorbing those stars, Bowser became this powerful.
 * Multi-Galaxy level
 * In the DiC Cartoons, Darth Koopa revealed that, within a week, he'd conquer and remake the universe into the Koopaverse. Mario had done battle with and defeated Darth Koopa twice.
 * Multi-Universe level
 * In the movie, killed Koopa. Koopa wanted to merge the Mushroom World with reality, making one large universe out of the two, and then rule over them.
 * Multiverse level+
 * Fought Bowser during the events of Mario Party 5, where he stated and showed he was going to ruin, or, destroy Dream Depot. In Dream Depot, the dreams of the multiverse's denizens are turned into entire universes. Bowser also planned on destroying Future Dream; this dream in particular was stated by Misstar AND by Mario Party 5's guide booklet on page 28 to be an entire universe, meaning each dream is its own universe. Going by this, there are 62,443,259,802,000,000,000 dreams/universes in Dream Depot. Please note Bowser also wanted to recreate Dream Depot itself. Dream Depot is a realm "Past the moon and beyond the stars." A realm people only get a chance to visit as long as the Star Spirits approve, implying such a realm is transcendental to the regular universe, meaning it would be at this level. More support it is a transcendent realm is the game opening, where it appears as a tiny dot in nothingness before encompassing all of... well, everything. Bowser only got to Dream Depot due to his evil dreams, combined with three Koopa Kids. So it was more of a bypass than anything else. Thus, recreating a transcendental realm to a finite multiverse is 2-A.

Sonic So... not even Archie's base can keep up in power. Let's move on to stronger forms--Super Sonic and his other forms, and all of Mario's RPGs, which is where he shines the brightest.
 * Multi-Galaxy level
 * In the DiC Cartoons, defeated Supreme High Robotnik with the help of four other Sonics. Supreme High Robotnik is the master of the universe, capable of conquering it.
 * High Universe level
 * In Archie, utilizing his speed, cancelled out a black hole generator that was going to consume a star system. Sonic explicitly states that he'll match that force, which ruptured space-time and was going to excel to the size of a star system. Said force that he created then caused distortions in space-time itself. In this case, Sonic matched the power of a black hole that would rupture space-time and destroy 4-A space, putting him at this level for destroying space-time that is less than universal in scale.

RPG Mario
 * Universe level+
 * Defeated Culex, who was stated on page 64 of the player's guide to be the Master of Time and Space. Also, in his Japanese text, he stated that he holds time from its beginning to its end and holds the power over creation in the Marioverse.
 * Multi-Universe level
 * Destroyed Dark Star Core and aided in the defeat of Dark Bowser. Half the dark power was called a cosmic threat by Chakron, and was stated to have unfathomable power. Chakron... his pose absorbs waves from outer space, rendering him with complete control of space. With such a power, he is able to do anything. He also implies heavily to be at one with the universe, including its space-time. He can "hear" the universe, and knows what it's thinking, going as far as to personify it. And he understands the Chakroads, which can take people to locales etched within their past. Clearly he has some deep connections here. So, someone at one with the universe says half the dark power is a cosmic threat... whether he meant a universal threat, or a large threat, doesn't matter. Chakron considering him a threat to the universe, or Chakron considering him a large threat are both enough to justify the dark power at that level. And remember: that was half the dark power. The full dark power would be A LOT stronger, thus, at this level.
 * Defeated Mega Dragon Bowser, and destroyed the Megabug. The former is the form the latter took after absorbing Spawny [who in turn was merged with the SupaMerge Headset] and Bowser. By absorbing the SupaMerge Headset, the Megabug attained its fusionism powers, which was capable of merging Mario's world and the real world.
 * At least Multiverse level
 * Defeated Dreamy Bowser, who was the embodiment of the Dream Stone. The Dream Stone is composed of 7,670,250,000,000,000,000 dreams/universes.
 * High Complex Multiverse level
 * Defeated Dimentio, who matched The Void, which was going to consume all existence--all worlds, all dimensions, all possibilities and all timelines. And because String Theory Soup proves that the Marioverse's secrets reside within String Theory, which is a theory that supports 11-dimensionality, this feat was consuming eleven dimensions, making the characters 11-dimensional. String Theory is valid because it was literally stated by an omniscient narrator, protected within a museum and a puzzle-locked chest and even patrolled by security 24/7.
 * Low Hyperverse level
 * Killed Super Dimentio with the Pure Hearts. Why is this infinitely superior to his base form? Well...

Tippi said: This sage was very wise and is even said to have written the Light Prognosticus... He was also a great magician who could control dimensions... The statements that were emboldened will come in handy later. Next...

The Light Prognosticus wrote: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A_IjEPiYXhE&feature=youtu.be&t=15m50s The Void will swallow all... Naught can stop it... unless the one protected by the dark power is destroyed. The hero with the power of eight Pure Hearts will rise to this task.]

Now, please recall that Merloo wrote the Light Prognosticus. And he is saying that not even he can stop this prophecy. Of course, he controls dimensions--so Super Dimentio clearly has to be beyond his reach of power--a twelfth dimensional being.

Believe it or not, this is actually backed up by something else. And that something else is backed up by how the manipulation of the concept of death works.

The manipulation of death, as a concept, open wide opportunities. With this, you can instantly both kill an object and on the contrary, make it immortal, depriving it of the concept of death. In addition, you can kill even conceptually immortal beings, if your concept is stronger than the concept of a target.

Now, I'm proposing that Queen Jaydes has power over the concepts of life and death, and I'll be matching what she's done to the definition of the manipulation of life and death concepts.

Not only can she instantly kill Paper Mario in a game over (the one I'm proposing is 11-D), but she can also bring Luvbi back during the post-game, even though such a Nimbi never existed, and was merely a persona of the Pure Heart.

So, she has the power to both instantly kill a target and, on the contrary, make it immortal.

Now, she stands no chance against Super Dimentio--according to the definition itself, in order to not be able to kill someone, they simply must have a stronger concept.

And what's a stronger concept than higher dimensionality? Merloo supports it, and Jaydes supports Merloo. Heck, the Pure Hearts support it, as they have infinite power when in comparison to normal characters. This is all very consistent--and, it provides great reasoning for why the Chaos Heart and Pure Hearts were needed. Everything just... adds up.

With all this said and shown, we now know the fullest extent of Mario's power. Let's see Sonic's.

Sonic's Forms
 * High Universe level as Excalibur Sonic
 * Defeated the Dark Queen, whose power could erase the story. By erasing the story, she erases the events, thus, erases the timeline. However, the size of Camelot was unknown, and was more so implied to only be around the size of a planet. It was a story relating to a kingdom on a planet, and that's all. Thus, erasing time that's less than universal in scale puts Excalibur Sonic at the higher end of this tier.
 * Universe level+ as Darkspine Sonic
 * Defeated Alf Layla Wa-Layla who stated that he was going to recreate the Arabian Nights reality in his own image.
 * At least Universe level+ as Game Super Sonic and as Pre-Genesis Archie Super Sonic
 * Practically stomped the Time Eater, who erases all of time and space.
 * Pummeled Knuckles Enerjak easily. And because Mogul was only shown destroying single space-times, I only consider him Low 2-C, rather than 2-C.
 * Low Hyperverse level as Post-Genesis Archie Super Sonic
 * With the aid of Super Mega Man, stalemated God Sigma, who had transcended all limitations of the multiverse, which a dimensional matrix, an 11-dimensional structure. We know Professor Von Schlemmer is reliable because he's been studying the Genesis Portals--old remnants of the Pre-Genesis multiverse--for his entire life; thus, he should know a thing or two about its physiology.

Seems Mario and Sonic have a rivalry in one part: Paper Mario w/ Pure Hearts VS Post-Genesis Archie Super Sonic. In practically every other circumstance, though, that doesn't work out well. Thus, Mario, overall, beats Sonic in every way in this category.

But do you wanna know who takes it in the Low 1-B fight? Paper Mario. Why?

God Sigma transcended all the limitations, yes. But that automatically puts him at a lower end of the tier. Meanwhile, Mimi was the weakest Low 1-B character in the game, given a bit of Count Bleck's power. Count Bleck dwarfed her, Super Dimentio destroys the count by a ludicrous amount, and the Heroes of Light literally beheaded Super Dimentio. So, Super Sonic stalemated someone at the lower end of the tier, which would be like stalemating Mimi. He's weaker than Bleck, who is weaker than Super Dimentio, who is weaker than the Heroes of Light, including Paper Mario.

Speed
Finally, the point most people love to bring up that makes Sonic win. But does it really? Let's explore and come to a conclusion. I'll only be talking about their feats that are FTL or higher.

Sonic Now, Mario.
 * FTL on the lower end as base Sonic
 * Is considered faster than light in an official source, and even ran fast enough to catch the Cyan Laser Wisp, but states it was almost as fast as him. And while he didn't fully escape, he did manage to outrun a black hole for an extended period of time.
 * Massively FTL+ in the quintillions as base Archie Sonic
 * Traveled the Cosmic Interstate, which is measured in lightyears, in less than a day. This has been calculated at quintillions of times FTL.
 * Massively FTL+, likely Infinite as Game Super Sonic
 * Casually raced past stars, and stomped Time Eater, who moves in timeless voids as its natural environment.
 * Immeasurable as Post-Genesis Archie Super Sonic
 * Higher dimensional order. He way surpasses our concepts of speed and distance.

Mario So, with this, we can see that, in terms of finite speeds, Archie Sonic > Mario > Game Sonic.
 * FTL on the lower levels
 * Can keep up with Behemoth King, who protects the Dark Crystal, which can fly deep out into space within seconds, and then create a black hole of an enormous magnitude. Said black hole even sucks in dozens of light particles, before revealing lightbeams within the black hole being dissipated.
 * FTL+ on the mid or upper levels
 * Completely outspeeds Bowser in three Mario Parties where he had to deal with black holes, those being 5, 8 and 9. He also escaped a black hole himself in Mario Party 6. The one in MP9 was literally sucking in whole planets before it sucks in Mario or Bowser, the latter being someone the former keeps up with.
 * Massively FTL+ on very high scales
 * Fought the Millennium Star, which flew from the center of the universe to Earth in a couple of seconds. This feat has been calculated in the quadrillions of times FTL. Also fought Bowser and Bowser Junior, who kept up with the Mini-Stars. The Mini-Stars were not only able to fly out of a black hole in less than a second and effectively cross the size of a solar system, which is over 30,000x faster than light, but began returning to their placement across the universe, which is easily MFTL+.
 * Keeps up with Bowser in both Galaxy games. And in SMG2, Bowser tagged Starship Mario with his meteors. Starship Mario can travel entire worlds, which are entire universes, as Lubba states that you must travel through space-time in order to reach unknown worlds. Starship Mario crosses said universes, going from one side to the other, in ten seconds. It takes 91 billion lightyears to do that in reality, so, Mario can travel and fight with speeds that cross 9.1 billion lightyears every second, and can react at such a speed. This would be 79,770,600,000,043.484375x the speed of light.
 * Scales to Dreamy Bowser, who scales to Antasma, who scales to Dreamy Luigi, who jumped out into the Sun in 1 second. The distance between the Earth and the Sun is 92,960,000 miles. Crossing that distance in that time is 334,656,000,000mph, or 499.0272912069 speeds of light. Dreamy Luigi could also jump into constellations, which takes MFTL+ speed--more specifically a few lightyears per second of speed--to accomplish within such a small time frame.
 * Infinite
 * Fought and easily kept up with Culex, and Culex is the Master of Time and Space, and can consume time. Thus, timeless voids would be his natural environment. He also holds time from its beginning to its end, and during his fight, he was crossing between dimensions. And he was about to leave Mario's and go back to Vanda--thus, he was in between dimensions at the time. Meaning, he was outside of the space-time continuum--which qualifies for infinite speed.
 * Can move within the dimensional rift between each Secret Level. These aren't pre-destined rifts, either, as Shadow Mario left and never appeared in the Secret Level with Mario. With that said, this must have been a white, empty rift that Mario and Shadow Mario moved through on their own. The background moving was only because the two Marios were moving, evidenced by their blurs, so this was indeed an empty rift.
 * Immeasurable as Paper Mario
 * Of course, higher dimensional order and all. But he has feats to back it up, too. The Void consumes all existence--all worlds, all dimensions, all timelines, all possibilities. This would also mean it destroyed all time within the Marioverse. Paper Mario could still move after The Void destroyed Sammer's Kingdom, and could even move whilst INSIDE The Void. And to be specific, having time annihilated on a 4-D scale justifies infinite speed. But the Marioverse has super time, the 11th Dimension. There is time--being above time is infinite, and most fictional universes that don't abide by String Theory only have a space-time continuum. However, abiding by String Theory gives the Marioverse a super space-time continuum, where space beyond the axes of X, Y and Z move, and where they move in super time--being above super time is immeasurable. The Void consumes all dimensions, so, if Paper Mario moves in a realm without super time, he has immeasurable speed.

But infinite speeds? Technically, a tie. But just like before, Paper Mario takes it due to scaling. Meaning: Sonic isn't faster at their peaks.

Hax
One of the most important things in a debate. Who has more hax? Lemme C+P a VS Battles-esque collection of their powers I made.

Mario :

Powers and Abilities: Superhuman strength, speed, agility, reflexes and durability, Enhanced Unarmed Combat, Dimensional Storage, Pyrokinesis, Minor Electrokinesis and Aerokinesis, Energy Manipulation, Longevity (In the Super Mario Galaxy games, Mario has witnessed two Star Festivals, which take place once every 100 years. Comparable to Peach and Bowser, who would live on for 10,000 more years after Bowser created his own universe), Shapeshifting (Has transformed into others before), Telekinesis (Can change the direction of Megavitamins mid-flight), Plant Growth Acceleration (Has invented a specific Megavitamin to accelerate plant growth), Resistance to Gravity Manipulation (Can walk perfectly fine on hundreds of different sized planets in different galaxies across different universes and can even walk near black holes), Enhanced Swordsmanship (Is greatly skilled in swordplay and fencing), Enhanced Marksmanship (Has held real guns before and has pulled off impressive feats with them), 4th Wall Awareness (Displayed both in-games and in Super Mario-Kun), Resurrection (Resurrection as Undead; it took awhile, but in Super Mario-Kun, Mario was killed, traversed through hell, and came back to life), Pain Affinity, Regeneration (High-Mid; survived being blown to pieces like a balloon), Duplication (Can sacrifice extra lives for a clone of himself), Resistance to Primordial Force Manipulation (The Player can't affect him at all), Resistance to Universal Manipulation (Can break free from The Player's grip, which reigns over everything else in the game), Proficiency w/ Hammers, Soul Destruction and Mutilation (Has greatly damaged Boos and other ghosts, and has even destroyed Cackletta's Soul), Dimensional Manipulation, Space and Time Manipulation/Time Travel, Brotherly Telepathy w/ Luigi, Healing and Stamina Restoration via Refresh, Sleep Inducement via Lullaby, The ability to shower foes in stars via Star Storm, The ability to lower the Attack Potency of foes via Chill Out, Healing via Smooch, Time Stop via Time Out, The ability to turn his foes into lifeless stars, before placing them in the sky via Up & Away and Energy Manipulation via Star Beam & Peach Beam. Attack Reflection w/ Super Sheet & Hammer, Earthquake Generation w/ Earth Tremor, Time Stop w/ Clock Out, Increased stats w/ Power Lift, Reality Warping w/ and w/o Art Attack, Healing & Stamina Restoration w/ Sweet Feast, Pure Hearts and Max Candy, One Hit Kill w/ Showstopper, Supernova Generation w/ Supernova, Dimensional Travel, Time Paradoxal Resistance (It protects its user from the destruction The Void causes, which would erase the user's past) and Reality Reset w/ the Pure Hearts, Wish Granting w/ Royal Stickers and Lost Mushroom, Healing w/ Mushroom, Enhanced Pyrokinesis w/ Fire Flower, Flight w/ Feather, Wing Cap, Red Star, White Tanooki and Tanooki Leaf, Cyrokinesis w/ Ice Flower and Penguin Suit, Duplication w/ Double Cherry and Pal Pill, Invulnerability w/ Starman, Rainbow Star, Metal Cap, Mega Mushroom, Mega Star and White Tanooki, Increased durability w/ Life Mushroom, Ghost Physiology w/ Boo Mushroom, Terrakinesis w/ Rock Mushroom, Cloud Manipulation w/ Cloud Flower, Intangibility w/ Vanish Cap, Size Manipulation w/ Mini and Mega Mushrooms and Mega Star, Increased speed w/ Mini and Mega Mushrooms, Starman, Rainbow Star and Mega Star, Nigh-Invulnerability and Transmutation w/ Gold Fire Flower, Metal Manipulation w/ Metal Cap, Increased strength w/ Metal Cap, Mega Mushroom, Starman, Rainbow Star and Mega Star, Soul Sealing and Soul Unsealing w/ the Power Stars, Meta Wish Granting, Power Bestowal and Nigh-Complete Arsenal w/ the Star Rod (Paper Mario), etc. Resistance to Elemental Manipulation, Fear Manipulation, Poison Manipulation, Sleep Manipulation, Instant Death Attacks and Power Nullification w/ the Super Suit. Limited Particle Manipulation, Stat Buffing/Debuffing, Spring Form, Vampire Mode, Electrokinetic Physiology, Electrokinesis, Spherical Form, Tornado Form, Shapeshifting, Gold Coin Creation, Duplication, Stone Mimicry, Invulnerability and Fire Aura w/ Candies. Paperize and is 1,000x stronger than base form as Shiny Paper Mario

Sonic :

Powers and Abilities: Superhuman strength, speed, reflexes, agility and durability, Regeneration (Mid-Low), Resistance to Mind Control, Aerokinesis, Enhanced Swordsmanship, 4th Wall Awareness, Force-Field Generation (Sonic can generate a shield for a split second that nullifies all harm for that split second. He can use this over and over again, but it only ever lasts for a split second at a time), Fire Aura and Ice Aura. Spatial Manipulation, Time Manipulation and Teleportation w/ a Chaos Emerald, Shapeshifting (Via Color Powers), Explosion Inducement (Via Black Bomb and Red Burst), Flight (Via Crimson Eagle, Green Hover, Indigo Asteroid, Magenta Rhythm, Orange Rocket, and Violet Void), Gravity Manipulation (Via Indigo Asteroid and Violet Void), Electrokinesis (Via Ivory Lightning), Pyrokinesis (Via Red Burst), Size Manipulation (Via Purple Frenzy and Violet Void), Absorption and Black Hole Physiology (Via Purple Frenzy and Violet Void), Intangibility (Via Violet Void), Limb Extension as Werehog Sonic. In Archie, Omnilingualism, Reality Warping, Intangibility and Resistance to Reality Warping. Meta Gravity Manipulation w/ Ark of the Cosmos. Time Travel w/ Time Traveling Surfboard | All abilities as before exponentially multiplied, as well as Energy Manipulation, Invulnerability and Reality Warping in the Super and Hyper forms. In Archie Pre-Genesis strictly, Dimensional Travel and Spatial Slicing | Superhuman strength, speed, reflexes, agility and durability, Limited Pyrokinesis, Flight, Time Manipulation and Reality Warping as Darkspine | Superhuman strength, speed, reflexes, agility and durability and immunity to Time Manipulation as Sonic-Man | Superhuman strength, speed, reflexes, agility and durability, Environmental Adaptation, Pyrokinesis, Cyrokinesis, Chlorokinesis, Invulnerability and Atomic Manipulation as Ultra

Now, can you tell who has it better? Mario not only has more, but whatever Sonic has, he has, and has it better.

Post-Genesis Archie Super Sonic reset reality by recreating it, and so did Paper Mario w/ the Pure Hearts. Except Paper Mario reset it back to a point that never existed. The Void has Nonexistence, the power to erase literally anything and leave no trace at any point in any time period. Super Sonic brought it back because it had existed. Big difference in power there.

Shoot, even if Sonic somehow managed to kill Mario, Retry Clocks and Earlier Times would like to say hi. What are those?

Once Mario is downed or even killed, a Retry Clock will activate, rewinding time back to the beginning of the fight. Mario and his foe get all their items they used back, and are restored to peak physical condition. The only difference is that Mario retains the memories of his defeat, while the enemy does not, allowing him to effectively save scum his way to victory--learning everything his foe will do beforehand. He can carry up to 99 of these. Earlier Times work the same way, and he can also carry 99 of those.

198 resets? More than Chara needed to kill Sans! And what about arsenals? Well...

Mario:

Standard Equipment: A myriad of Power-ups, Megavitamins, the Miracle Cure, Super Sheet, Rifle, Bazooka, Cannon Block, Flash Block, Propeller Block, Coin Block, POW Block, Ice Skate, Kuribo's Boot, Spiny Helmet, Beetle Helmet, Warp Whistle, Bombs, Super Scope, two Hammers (M&L and Paper Mario), two Star Rods (Mario Party and Paper Mario), Star Driver, Magic Wand, Laser Blaster, Power Drinks, Peppers, Sleepy Bomb, Bad Mushroom, Freight Bomb, Fire Bomb, Ice Bomb, Rock Candy, Star Egg, Pure Water, Retry Clocks, Earlier Times, Spin Drill, F.L.U.D.D., Water Propelled Rockets, Battle Cards, Copy Block, Badges, Crystal Stars, Sticker Album/Royal Stickers, Color Cards & Paint, Pure Hearts, Feather, Super Suit, Mega Glove, Ultra Hammer, Lazy Shell, the Lost Mushroom, a plunger, a wrench, a monkey wrench, a small hammer, Plumber's Putty, a small hacksaw, Plunger Staff, a Light Plunger, Spy Plumbing Gear, Plumber's Helper, a Plumbing Snake, tons of sports equipment, S.F.C. Nun-Chucks, Mushroom Sword, Star Shield, Power Stars, an axe and Blaster. In the live-action movie, he has a van, a wrench, Bob-ombs, Thwomp Boots, a Banzai Bill, a flamethrower, a Fireball Cannon and a Devolution Gun

Sonic:

Standard Equipment: Rings, Barriers (Normal, Flame, Water and Electric), Invincibility Capsule, Wisps, Chaos Emeralds, Super Emeralds, World Rings, Caliburn, Ark of the Cosmos, Wrist Gems, Enerbeam, Cosmo Fighter Spaceship, Police Car, Cyclone, Extreme Gear, Medallion, Time Traveling Surfboard

Seriously. Arsenals, hax, power, speed... Mario practically takes it all, IMO. This is why I think Mario wins.