Thread:Metal Mario875/@comment-31355441-20170721200416/@comment-31355441-20170726003227

Metal Mario875 wrote: I sure wish I could agree with this (in all honesty, I don't, but that sounded like a good intro), but you massively downplayed Dimentio. You did good with Bill though, but there was one issue: he isn't 12-D in the slightest. At all. He's 11-D at his peak. With that said, let's pick this apart, piece by piece.

1. Low-balling Bill in this fight is a bad idea. Then he gets roflstomped. Of course, you're likely to not believe me. So allow me to head into a large explanation.

As we know, Paper Mario tanked The Void ( https://youtu.be/-G5CrFaNkaI?t=6m5s ), so the piece of paper has some durability. How much?

Well...

It was stated that The Void would consume all existence ( https://youtu.be/A_IjEPiYXhE?t=15m12s )--everything from all universes, to all dimensions, to all timelines and time periods (Makes it as if those worlds and dimensions never existed at all [ https://youtu.be/QYykQsyPdBo?t=47s ]), and even threatens heaven, hell ( https://youtu.be/1bVYIhaC-g0?t=52m55s ) and, as this guy points out, even erases souls themselves ( https://youtu.be/rt6vmN6XYpY?t=12m52s ). Mr. L even says the Prognosticus makes it to where anything the count doesn't like, "POOF! It never existed" ( https://youtu.be/90hHx1WAHAc?t=43m26s ). We can tell The Void is strong, as it makes it as if concepts, abstracts, anything in existence no longer exists. And never did. This is akin to "Nonexistence," the ability to annihilate anything in existence without limitation. But this is The Void, right? Nothing to do with Dimentio, right? Well...

Did you know Dimentio matched this thing in power? Alright, I ain't gonna lie. I've been hiding something. Can you guess what it is? Well, it makes Dimentio 11-dimensional. :)

String Theory Soup ( https://youtu.be/DzdBCqn0pco?t=5m21s ) is a treasure from Wario: Master of Disguise that had been locked within an exhibit, patrolled by security, kept within a lock-puzzle system behind a safe. What does this soup say? "All the secrets of the universe are contained within this soup. Drink not, lest you learn more than man was ever meant to know." So, basically, this soup was dangerous because it would reveal all the secrets of the universe to the drinker, which, presumably, would overwhelm them with knowledge. What were the secrets? Well, the name itself says it clearly: String Theory. So, String Theory is real in the Marioverse... which supports 11 dimensions. Crazy, right? It's almost as if this match was destined! Unfortunately, Bill at full power can only take on base Dimentio. Allow me to continue--we'll reach Super Dimentio later.

Now, how did Dimentio match The Void? Of course, Paper Mario tanked The Void, which was consuming all eleven dimensions and erasing those planes from existence. Here's Paper Mario's condition after The Void:

https://vignette3.wikia.nocookie.net/character-stats-and-profiles/images/8/83/Void_Condition.png/revision/latest?cb=20170514002906

As you can tell, Paper Mario has been blown back to Flipside--another world, and is temporarily unconscious.

https://vignette1.wikia.nocookie.net/character-stats-and-profiles/images/4/44/Dimentio_Condition.png/revision/latest?cb=20170514002922

And here, Dimentio has blown Paper Mario to the Underwhere--another world, and he is temporarily unconscious. The similarities between said feats cannot be ignored--Dimentio clearly matched The Void's power. This would mean that Dimentio matched a force that consumes and erases abstract concepts, universes, planes of reality, time periods, EVERYTHING from existence, and makes it as if they never existed at all. So... comparing this to Bill, who was stated to be a threat to the multiverse and its inhabitants in the journal (just a friendly question, but do you have those? Cause if not, I can send the scans to you), we can see that Dimentio is the stronger 11-dimensional being. They both are Immeasurable in speed, but Dimentio is far more impressive, since he can move WITHIN The Void, unfazed by its strains. Hell, he moved when outside of existence itself in Sammer's Kingdom. And he fought in both places, too.

Overall, statistics goes to Dimentio. And this is base form, too. You were using Super Dimentio? I hate to say this, but that's a horrific stomp. Super Dimentio is 12-dimensional. Here's why:

Tippi said: This sage was very wise and is even said to have written the Light Prognosticus... He was also a great magician who could control dimensions... ( https://www.mariowiki.com/Tribe_of_Ancients#Merloo )

Next...

The Light Prognosticus wrote: The Void will swallow all... Naught can stop it... unless the one protected by the dark power is destroyed. The hero with the power of eight Pure Hearts will rise to this task. ( https://youtu.be/A_IjEPiYXhE?t=15m50s )

Now, please recall that t'was Merloo who wrote the Light Prognosticus. And he is saying that not even he can stop this prophecy. Of course, he controls dimensions--so Super Dimentio clearly has to be beyond his reach of power--a twelfth dimensional being.

Believe it or not, this is actually backed up by something else. And that something else is backed up by how the manipulation of the concept of death works.

The manipulation of death, as a concept, open wide opportunities. With this, you can instantly both kill an object and, on the contrary, make it immortal, depriving it of the concept of death. In addition, you can kill even conceptually immortal beings, if your concept is stronger than the concept of a target.

Now, I'm proposing that Queen Jaydes has power over the concepts of life and death, and I'll be matching what she's done to the definition of the manipulation of life and death concepts.

Not only can she instantly kill Paper Mario in a game over ( https://youtu.be/k72JvhkBa44?t=1m44s ), but she can also bring Luvbi back during the post-game, even though such a Nimbi never existed, and was merely a persona of the Pure Heart ( https://www.mariowiki.com/Luvbi#History ).

So, she has the power to both instantly kill a target and, on the contrary, make it immortal.

Now, she stands no chance against Super Dimentio--according to the definition itself, in order to not be able to kill someone, they simply must have a stronger concept.

And what's a stronger concept than higher dimensionality? Merloo supports it, and Jaydes supports Merloo. Heck, the Pure Hearts support it, as they have infinite power when in comparison to normal characters ( https://youtu.be/5LY6HvRc3-s?t=8m49s ). This is all very consistent--and, it provides great reasoning for why the Chaos Heart and Pure Hearts were needed. Everything just... adds up.

So... Super Dimentio is 12-D, dwarfing Bill in power. Base Dimentio is a stronger and faster 11-D being. The winner is seeming clean-cut, but I'll continue on with your other points, since Dimentio was underestimated there, too.

2. Actually, Dimentio is smarter, believe it or not. Bill can see the future? So can Dimentio. As a matter of fact, it's heavily implied that Dimentio wrote the Dark Prognosticus, which was stated countless times to be precognitive by about 2,000 years. Accurately, I might add. Dimentio would see this fight and know everything Bill was going to do long before Bill even knew. And that's without mention that, by being part of the Tribe of Ancients, this statement right here would apply to Dimentio: https://youtu.be/5LY6HvRc3-s?t=2m27s

So... Dimentio is thousands of times smarter than the guy that can build functional space stations, a ruler of a kingdom, a plumber that has had enough occupations to equate to him being ninety years old and is only 24-26, and another plumber around the same intellect... That should put him around supergenius levels. Bill knows "lots of things," I'll give him that. Including answers to many controversies and theories. But it's either that (which, don't get me wrong, is hilariously impressive in its own right, easily landing Bill around extraordinary genius levels), or vastly superhuman in all fields of research, capable of inventing potions for true immortality in mere minutes, creating sentient tools capable of building up entire worlds, and even waging war against said sentient tools when they rebel, AND winning via magic? I mean, let's be straight-forward--Dimentio is definitely smarter. And Super Dimentio would have eventually become nearly all-knowing, since he would create all existence in his own image, thus knowing all outcomes, answers, etc.

3. I proved that wrong now, so... but you were correct. If Bill were a higher dimensional being than Super Dimentio.

4. One thing: the book also reveals that Bill's incantation takes outside help from A-X-O-L-O-T-L, basically the god of the verse. Including Super Dimentio means Bill can't hurt him and can be erased completely via Nonexistence, since Super Dimentio controls The Void. So either way, if this is base Dimentio, no outside help. If this is Super Dimentio, stomp. And while it'd make him hard to kill, he certainly isn't impossible to kill. His eye is actually a weak spot and, a big one at that.

BONUS. Hax is very important in a battle, so maybe Bill can catch up? Let's find out. :)

Dimentio: Superhuman strength, speed, durability, reflexes and agility, Flight, Teleportation, Force-Field Manipulation, Precognition (Long-term; could predict accurately 2,000 years into the future), Explosion Inducement, Dark Magic, Space and Time Manipulation, Reality Warping, Dimensional Manipulation, Immortality (Type 1), Duplication, Reflection Manipulation, Illusion Manipulation, Pocket Dimension Creation and Intangibility. Mind Control w/ Floro Sprouts

Super Dimentio: Nonexistence, Superhuman strength, speed, durability, reflexes and agility, Void Manipulation, Reliant Invulnerability, Space-Time Manipulation, Reality Warping, Life Creation, Duplication, Flight, Precognition, Black Hole Creation, Dark Magic, Immortality (Type 1), Time Paradoxal Resistance (The Chaos Heart protects its user from the destruction The Void causes, which would erase the user's past) and Resistance to Life and Death Concept Manipulation

Bill Cipher: Superhuman strength, speed, reflexes, agility and durability, Immortality (Types 1, 3 and 4), Regeneration (Low-Mid; can regenerate from his eye being stabbed and/or destroyed, and he implies that's the hardest thing to regenerate from, implying other limbs would be far easier), Teleportation, Reality Warping, Dimensional Travel, Astral Projection, Space and Time Manipulation, Nightmare Inducement, Dream Materialization, Parachronal Cognition, Extrasensory Perception, Flight, Matter Manipulation (Molecular), Limited Possession (Is forced to make a deal with the enemy in order to take control of them), Pyrokinesis, Size Manipulation, Telekinesis, Insanity Inducement (Can create bubbles that can induce insanity into whatever it touches), 4th Wall Awareness and Soul Removal (But, once again, in order to remove someone's soul, he had to make a deal with them)

Now... let's see who takes the edge here. Both have immortality type 1, immunity to aging and disease. So those don't matter. Bill's type 3 is regen, and type 4 is by being a "god." Not very helpful. So, let's continue.

Reality Warping for both is at an extremely high scale, so those nullify... most of Bill's perception powers won't help, and Insanity Inducement is useless against Dimentio, who is already insane. Matter Manipulation won't help much because Dimentio could resist The Void, which, as we know, does this type of stuff at a way higher extent.

Both Bill and Dimentio are cunning and persuasive, so trickery won't work. Meaning, Bill won't be able to use a couple powers, like Soul Removal and Possession. Since he has to make a deal...

Meanwhile, most of Dimentio's powers would work. Since we're using Bill at his strongest, he has his physical form. So Floro Sprouts are an option. And things like Reflection Manipulation and Illusion Manipulation can really mess around with Bill... so it seems hax, overall, is pretty even. I'll admit--Bill has more. And things like Dream Materialization are useful. But they can't make him win.

Overall... Dimentio has Bill beat in statistics, intelligence and hax. And Super Dimentio stomps. So, I'd actually say Dimentio wins this comfortably.

Now, this is a "Stop Bill Cipher Downplay" community, so I'll admit one thing: if you were to disregard everything I said, your results were pretty solid. Good job! :D

That's what I sent, C+P'd from my post. You should be able to see it on my profile page.

i have no words...

this is what true debator is i just can't tell how much effort was put into this and how amazing it's researched

Bro you're a fucking legend on the Mario Debating Community, please just send Me your Google+ Account